I saw this “hot take” as a bit of an opportunity to encourage healthy DnD games and I hope you guys enjoyed it. Anyway, I’m writing this on New Year’s Eve and I’ve got a little get-together to get to. Wish me luck. I’ll need it.
Tabletop Tavern Tips is a series where I go over D&D tips for both DMs and players. Whether you are a new player getting to know the basics or a seasoned DM who wants to take some new tricks, I’ll try my best to improve your D&D experience, one video at a time.
@DnDShorts HOT TAKES:
Oriks and Croat:
Timestamps:
0:00 – Intro
1:55 – The Problem With Gatekeeping
4:40 – Finding the Right Fit
9:06 – When to Kick
Anna Marcano – Tiefling Paladin
Music:
Owllock:
Autumn Orange:
Avatar animated by Slab of Cheese.
Check her stuff:
Dragmiredraws
10.01.2023Ngl, this vid seems like denouncing gatekeeping while at the same time justifying your own definition of gatekeeping. Gatekeeping in and of itself is just limiting who can enter an established space. It’s become a bit of a buzz word with a negative connotation, and I think that’s where the mixed feelings come from. There is a HUGE difference between gatekeeping and elitism. In most of the stories people are talking about “gatekeeping” they’re really talking about elitism.
So, I don’t think the take was bad, I think the culture around it is what makes it a “bad take”. If they’d said “limiting people who come into your games/spaces is good.” I think it would’ve been received better, and I feel that’s part of the problem. Because it’s literally saying the same thing.
I also feel that this term is taking agency away from the people being “gatekept”. I’m not saying finding a RPG group is easy, it definitely involves some looking, with the internet, it’s literally impossible not to find someone who’s looking for a new group. Imo the people who can’t find groups aren’t looking hard enough. This isn’t the same as a group that you found and then scheduling prevents you guys from playing, I’m talking about specifically finding a group.
NINJAfries07
08.01.2023Personally, I’ve always seen gatekeeping as trying to keep someone from entering a particular hobby in its entirety, as opposed to just keeping them out of your specific group. You can kick a player who just doesn’t mesh well with your style, or if they’re causing problems, but they can still find another group. Gatekeeping, at least in my mind, is far more disgusting and can take many different forms ranging from completely denying entry to letting someone in specifically to give them a hard time and essentially scare them away from ever trying again.
Falionna
08.01.2023think it's a argument of sematics, aswell as arguing of what the gate is. Is it a table or the dnd hobby as a whole?
I've seen gatekeeping being used by players who wheren't allowed to join a table they wheren't fit for. Say a table running a horror themed strahd game but the player doesn't want any horror therefore disinvited.
So in short, it's another of those topics that needs definitions at the start of the argument to make sure people don't talk over eachother and recoqnize the multitidue of defintions that are in use.
Dexter van der Winden
08.01.20230:18 joke's on you I've already seen it. I am terminally in the DnD online-sphere.
dreamriing
08.01.2023i see the take that gatekeeping is good at times because people want to come into dnd/their fandom space and change everything. what kinds of changes does that mean to you, if this is your opinion? and why do you believe those changes are bad? genuine question
roarshach13
08.01.2023My problem with the pro gatekeeping crowd that they are always so incredibly vague as to who they want to keep their Hobbies from. That comment that you showcased in the intro was a perfect example. He uses the term "Outsiders" but notice he doesn't explain who these Outsiders are. I would give you a few guesses as to who he's talking about but none of them would count because we all know who he's talking about: women, people of color and the LGBT more than likely. They just can't say that because they know they would get lit up like a Christmas tree. There's so many dog whistles here it might as well just be a normal whistle!
Stephane Durette
08.01.2023In general, gatekeeping means "restricting/limiting access to something". In dnd that would mean "deciding who gets to join your game". The action itself isn't inherently good or bad, as there are examples of toxic gatekeeping ie. "blue haired people can't join my game" and non-toxic gatekeeping ie. "for ages x and over, new players only, no homophobia ect.". So I think stating that gatekeeping is inherently toxic is a misuse of the term and leads to confusion.
Also I think age restrictions are fine, if your game deals with mature themes you probably don't want younger players to join your game.
ED Reaser
08.01.2023You can't just spit out StarCraft and not declare your main
Mr Silver
08.01.2023With the exception of your own children, you're not obligated to spend your time with anyone for any reason. Not wanting to spend four hours of your week every week forever with any person for any reason is not toxic behavior. (It may be sad if the reason is bigotry, but I don't think the solution to that is to force you to play a game that's going to result in an RPGHorrorStory.) So, I do think you can not invite people to your game for arbitrary reasons; I think many reasons that aren't arbitrary to you may seem arbitrary to others. No one's reasons are arbitrary to them
Which means I think defining gatekeeping as excluding people from your game for arbitrary reasons is a bad idea. Better, I think, to define gatekeeping as trying to keep certain types of people from the hobby as a whole.
slagar the cruel 85
08.01.2023You and crit crab were the only big dnd horror content creators that were involved with this other guys video that I have heard of.
The Only Jer
08.01.2023Commenting before i finish watching the video (bad Jer, no donut), but I figured I'd point out that "gatekeeping" is kind of a nebulous term, isn't it?
starsystems
06.01.2023I had no idea there was this much confusion about the term gatekeeping.
Gatekeeping is "you aren't allowed in this hobby" ie. "Why is there a girl in my comic store?"
It's not "I don't want you in my dnd game because x". That can be either valid or not. Gatekeeping is always negative and designed to push people away from a hobby/interest/etc.
Kalida
06.01.2023Great video Crisp, well done.
Easiest cc
06.01.2023Not exactly gatekeeping.
CammyShill
06.01.2023The people who like to talk a lot about gatekeeping as a good thing are usually people who got too close to culture war stuff and basically want to exclude stuff they feel is charged with certain political ideologies. In short, it's rubbish and shouldn't be taken seriously, but some otherwise reasonable people could get themselves trapped in that because there are some arguments that can be insidiously convincing.
For example. Many people, me included, aren't fans of how the corporate powers that be have gradually sanitized the official versions of DnD. One of my favourite settings is Dark Sun, and a setting that is built on systemic slavery, genocidal warfare, forced inbreeding of slave races to produce better hard working slaves for their evil wizard overlords, and every character being half-naked because it's hot and Brom liked that aesthetic just isn't something that current WotC is ever going to make, because apparently just using the word race is enough to cause some concerns.
My favourite kind of fantasy is somewhat dark fantasy, not necessarily mature fantasy either, very pulpy, classic Conan style, with lots of chainmail bikinis and maybe half naked dudes too, why not, if there's people who like that at the table. That is my personal preference for fantasy. With the way WotC has been going I got this feeling the me and others with my tastes aren't wanted around. This is not true, because we can still play DnD however we like, even if the official version is more neutered and boring for our tastes, but the unpleasant feeling is still there.
Now, I'm not buying int he alt right narrative that gets pushed over this stuff as a so called left-wing operation. What this is is good old corporate nonsense that stifles creativity in the name of bigger potential profits, and that's something as old as capitalism, and definitely not, quote unquote, progressive. Nevertheless, I think some people can get caught in the idea that all the nonsense about gatekeeping being good actually because they feel defensive about the hobby they like and have liked for a while, and have convinced themselves that if they don't protect their, let's say, turf they will be somehow forced out. This is wrong of course, no one can somehow force them out of a hobby, but there's like a narrative on the internet and social media that's really good at getting into people's heads, and if it can find openings like this it can do damage.
This is my opinion on the matter.
David Spring
06.01.2023Not exactly gatekeeping
Lusalma
06.01.2023You had an excellent example of gate keeping in one of your videos where a friend invited a non-nerd looking person and ignored them.
Ashie
06.01.2023am i drunk or are the walls breathing- cool 😀
Anna Barich
06.01.2023My problem with using filtering out toxic players as a justification for gatekeeping is there is an inherent presumption of guilt in that logic. A gatekeeper looks at just a few narrow criteria to determine if someone fits in the category of 'one of us.' Often this criteria has nothing to do with toxicity, and is just about how similar they are to the existing group. Claiming the purpose of this is to prevent toxic people from infiltrating the group implies that everyone who does not fit your criteria is toxic, and places the burden on them to prove the negative. That someone would actually try to defend gatekeeping with this faulty logic tells me this is a case of actually toxic people turning around and accusing anyone who calls them out for their behavior as being the real toxic individuals.
A W
06.01.2023Three or so years ago Just Some Guy made a video about this very topic. I have to say, I agree with him on the topic.
Costélinha
06.01.2023Look I'm not knowledgable on D&D or TTRPGs, I never even played one of those in my life… I just watch channels like this for the horror stories… But….
GATEKEEPING SUCKS! No matter the media, or franchise, I'll always oppose this stupid little practise till the end of time. Also that take on how Gatekeeping is to "Prevent newcommers from changing the game, and etc" just sounds like he's one of those spoiled brats angry cuz their mom now wants him to share his toys. Also I dunno how to explain this to you, BUT CHANGE CAN BE GOOD SOMETIMES, and even straight up necessary, specially if a product wants to appeal to a wider audience.
Also establishing boundaries, and keeping problem players away from your table/community…. THAT'S NOT GATEKEEPING, THAT'S JUST MODERATION! they're not the same thing.
Like seriously, I don't give a shit if "Insert x hobby here" has been a huge part of your childhood or whatever, you have no right to be hostile to new people comming in to a media just because you're afraid that new audiences may bring new ideas that may cause "Insert x hobby here" to change. Just because you're a fan of something, doesn't mean you have ownership of said thing. It doesn't belong just to you. Again, I never played D&D before, but this doesn't apply just to D&D, it apply to any hobby/franchise under the sun.
Cat Munroe, Superhero
04.01.2023I don't play D&D anymore. After nearly four decades of trying to play a non-magical psionic elf, I went to an entirely different system. I'm happier and enjoy playing the character I created in AD&D 1e. I don't think D&D is a bad system, just the people who run it can't find something other than magic as Fantasy. I hate D&D now. I hope you enjoy it, but I will never play it ever again.
Kurgosh1
04.01.2023Either people are arguing past each other without really understanding, or you're being trolled. I find it hard to believe that there's anybody who can't tell the difference between, "You can't play with us because you keep trying to grope the DM," and, "You can't play with us because you don't own the first printing of the AD&D Deities and Demigods!"
randommanout
04.01.2023The post that started this whole conversation is probably the most unsustainable take for a hobby ever. Majority of hobbies need fresh blood and the new ideas they bring along to stay new and entertaining or the interest dies quickly. I may be reading to far into it but the take but this feels like more on the rounds they don't want control taken away from them as they do not want to be pushed to the side. Like I said last bit might be me reading too much into it so who knows.
Densoro
04.01.2023First off, A+ nuance.
Second: Holy crap the new art's so good!
Thraxarious Tailchaser
04.01.2023I see the parallels here between online discussions, you might want to look at "The Paradox of Tolerance." There's a difference between welcoming different ideas in, and people who's intent is to be intolerant and disruptive. You have to be "Intolerant of intolerance" else they will damage groups. Racism, sexism, other bigotry cannot be tolerated. Look at Karl Popper for the example of this.
Mog of War
04.01.2023It's not exactly gatekeeping, but more like employing a bouncer. Or another way to view it, is the hobby at large is a great meadow of immense size, and in that meadow literally anyone can play, but also there are many fenced in places and walled gardens, and in these spaces we each control who we let in, who we keep, and who we kick out. And there may even be fences inside of fences. Places where you let anyone who be decent to one another play amongst each other, and smaller places where you only invite those who take specific interests. Everyone has their niche and some will gatekeep their niche fiercer than others… let them. They cannot control the meadow, they can barely control the walled gardens that host their niches. But the meadow is vast and anyone can lay their own stakes, and you decide how your garden is kept.
arbrawlchamp
04.01.2023Side note, but are you playing/running Call of the Netherdeep? We have a first time DM running it in my Wednesday group, and it's been pretty great so far.
Michael McCarty
04.01.2023Gatekeeping is just another form of discrimination. If you automatically assume discrimination is bad, then you will assume gatekeeping is bad. If you recognized that discrimination is something we always do automatically in benign contexts, we will see gatekeeping in a similar light.
Skinjob
04.01.2023Finding the right fit is so, so important. The game I play in is different from the games I run (purely from an experience level), and both are great fun.
However, once I'm done running LMoP (1.5 years in the making due to scheduling), I'm not going to try and include everyone. I'd love to keep everyone, but I'm just sick of playing once every two months due to the game being on a seemingly low priority for one of my players.
Also, I'm going to be including a new player for a one-shot in 5e who did not enjoy 3.5e and assumed 5e was more of the same. Really looking forward bring someone INTO the fold.
Robyn
04.01.2023I think this all stems from the misunderstanding of those things being gatekeeping. It's just in the spirit.
Grim W
03.01.2023gate keeping can mean different things to different people, personally I view it as keeping negative or corrosive influences out.
foolycoolytheband
03.01.2023This is an argument over semantics breed purely from the application of gatekeeping by shitty people and online discussions over the subject that lack nuisance and are made up of bad faith takes. Gatekeeping at it's purest is simply the act of restricting who has access to a thing. That thing could be money, a media platform or a community in this case. We have all heard the nightmare stories of gatekeeping being used to prevent women, pocs and LGBTs from entering the hobby but the fact is gatekeeping is still used in many of these communities as a tool to maintain the safety of the people within these communities. What you describe is still gatekeeping, it is still restricting access to the hobby, the only difference is that your reasoning is justifiable when compared to a that of neck beard keeping women out of his games.
Jeeves Anthrozaur
03.01.2023Murderhobos aren't just PCs who kill.
Railroading isn't when the DM has plans.
Rules Lawyers don't actual care what the rules say, they're just trying to get favorable rulings.
Gatekeeping isn't just setting boundaries at your table. (see video above)
Sophie Scott
03.01.2023There's a huge difference between saying "You're not a good fit for MY TABLE" and saying "You're not allowed to play D&D AT ALL".
Tom Bruno
03.01.2023The thing about ttrpgs is so long as the table agrees literally anything is is fine. Gate keeping your table is fine, you have a culture to protect. Gatekeeping the hobby is not okay, thier table will choose what is okay for thier table. You don't have to care.
GeorgeSu15
03.01.2023Gatekeeping in a nutshell: You can't play DnD, you're a girl. You can't be a nascar driver, you're too ugly, you can't fly a plane, you're a woman. (that last one was a joke)
jacksparrowismydaddy
03.01.2023could you put captions in your vids please? it's hard for some of to hear correctly.
Bunny Bean
03.01.2023Not even close to Gatekeeping! Gatekeeping is keeping people out of an entire hobby because of who they are (I would argue that's not an "arbitrary reason" to most people who do it). Setting boundaries and removing problem players from an individual game is nowhere near the same thing.
Coda
03.01.2023Gatekeeping is keeping someone out because of who they R. Kicking ppl is done because of how they play. Sometimes ppl gatekeep because they assume how someone will play, because of who they R. Wargamers can invite ppl big on roleplay into their games, but if the person invited tries to change the game,(as if only their experience matters), then they need to be kicked. And vice versa. So.. Is keeping someone out because the group believes a new player will try to do this gatekeeping?
There R so many variables to this problem, I don't think there R many axioms that we can apply. It's gotta be sorted out on a situational basis. Bringing someone into a D&D campaign is really similar to bringing someone into a circle of friends. It's that complicated or that simple, because it can be either one.
1Ring 42
03.01.2023There's a difference between gatekeeping and maintaining a healthy social circle.
Marko Niemi
02.01.2023Setting boundries is about respecting individual likes and dislikes. Gatekeeping is about creating an arbitrary standard that you must fit into, thus creating an us vs. them mentality. The true fans vs. the filthy casuals, and so forth.
Exodus
02.01.2023personally i don't mind some of the more problematic themes hell if there is a purpose for it and it can advance a plot I'll allow more or less anything,this also means strong warnings prior to session zero let alone first session. like someone trying to force them selves on someone in a very adult and inappropriate manner if it can advance a plot or make a good but uncomfortable story sure I'll allow it rarely, if its just cause "ME WANT SNOO SNOO!?!" then no, i will see to it that it gets stopped before hand either in or out of game. i enjoy some truly dark themes in moderation, and even then only if it serves a clear purpose which Ive yet to see in most of these stories. Ive personally seen it work once and was just a back story element the character was a human fighter with a half orc child and she was actually in the party to take vengeance on the one who did that to her. she had irl trauma and was working it out. in the end she kills the orc that did what he did to her and and stays with the party to the end occasionally going back to take care of her child on the odd occasions when she couldn't make a session… it genuinely helped her to over come the past and was actually fun to work with if alittle uncomfortable.
Jacob Lewis
02.01.2023Your argument seems to be that "I'm not a gatekeeper because gatekeeping is toxic and I'm not toxic" or "it's only gatekeeping if the reasons for not letting them join are arbitrary or artificial", but everyone can be a little toxic sometimes, and different people have different definitions of "arbitrary or artificial".
Furthermore, filtering and gatekeeping are essentially synonyms with different connotations; what matters is the REASON for not letting them join. Some people just shouldn't be allowed into the community, like people who only want to play so they can rape people and commit murder in-game. If you let people like that in and only kick them out AFTER they do that kind of thing AND they don't agree to not do it again, you're essentially saying they get one free pass to be a dick, and that's one too many.
canderia
02.01.2023Gatekeeping has always been my biggest complaint about the metal Fandom. We need as many new people listening to metal as we can get. If not the genre will die.
theStefanius
02.01.2023Yes, let's talk about gatekeeping. I don't play with couples or people who could become a couple. I have a nose for who's going to hook up with who when the opportunity arises, like a shared hobby like TTRPGs. And my experience there proves me right. It's my experiences that I've had. Nobody here in the comments can deny me these experiences just because they don't like them. But in my experience the game always ends in disaster because couples always bring their problems to the table. They shout around the table, insult each other and often someone storms out of the room or apartment. Or if the argument happens before the game, both or one of them don't feel like playing. And I don't want drama. Some say gatekeeping, I call it care and diligence. I have a game to run and distracting elements are being removed.
And the problem with gatekeeping is that we all act like it's bad. Also, a problem player not inviting into the game is gatekeeping. Not letting someone play because someone smells like horse shit is also gatekeeping. But in the comments we will now find a lot of people who think there is a difference. There is someone who is not allowed to play. and depending on who you ask is gatekeeping or "removing a problem player". No one, absolutely no one removes anyone from the game for no reason. If you understand that reason then you call it "removing a problem player" and if you don't understand the reason then you call it gatekeeping even though it's exactly the same thing. Couples are problemplayers to me, now what?
Hollowblaze23
02.01.2023Fortunately, I never got confused with the term gatekeeping. I never experienced it in D&D, but I have experienced it elsewhere. Because of that, I never thought of keeping potential problem players out vs. keeping a potential player.
Tsifira Kiehl
02.01.2023Here’s the thing about hobbies like D&D: they need new players! If no one new gets into D&D, all the people who are currently into it will eventually move on to something else, or get old and die, and the hobby will die with them. New players are the lifeblood of the hobby, so those who truly love D&D should welcome them with open arms.
DahLekKnight
02.01.2023I like the new ratvatar!
Wandering Bard Again
02.01.2023Not exactly gatekeeping.